If you don’t support the free speech rights of the people you hate the most, then you don’t support free speech at all.
All censorship is bad. One day it’s naughty racial words and then the next day religious zealots can lock people up for saying “god” in the wrong context.
Dead wrong. The nazis will not be nice to you and respect your free speech because you respect theirs. Ever. They will lock you up regardless. This is not an even playing field.
Dead wrong. The nazis will not be nice to you and respect your free speech because you respect theirs. Ever. They will lock you up regardless. This is not an even playing field.
Again, nazis don’t have the power to do those things here in this century in the US.
If you say you are right to censor your worst enemys then the Nazis were logically also right to censor the opinions of the people THEY hated the most…
Supporting only certain peoples freedom of speech is the definition of censorship…
Everyone’s OPINION has to be tolerated. If you dont tolerate the people you deem “the intolerant” then those people will see you as intolerant (against them) aswell. According to you, they would then be right not not tolerate you (as “the intolerant” that doesnt tolerate them).
As long as they dont take away from anybody else’s freedom (and by just stating one’s opinion one doesnt do that) it has to be tolerated, otherwise it is censorship.
No it isn’t. One is a violent group who want to kill and enslave. The other respects life. They are not the same. They do not have the same rights. You are dead wrong, period. No amount of rationalization will make you not dead wrong.
Killing and enslaving are both means to do something, not the actual reason itself. If any person with a different political view wanted to do the same, it would be just as bad. Everyones opinion should be allowed.
Killing and enslaving should not be allowed and should be avoided at all cost.
The point is, however, if (lets say) a communist killed and enslaved people, should that mean that communist views should be censored in the future? (No! IMO)
Killing and enslaving people are terrible and unacceptable ways of pushing one’s own ideals. It does not make the actual opinion itself invalid though.
But communist views ARE censored, and it is specifically because it is claimed that they killed and enslaved. Meanwhile, Nazi views are celebrated as they announce to all that killing and enslavement is their goal.
Doesn’t mean you don’t support free speech. When I join a chatroom and someone is just typing shit over and over trying to get a rise and I ignore/block them, I don’t agree that I’m against free speech, I’m against harassment.
False equivalence. Online you can choose not to see things you don’t like. Online, no one can force you to look at things that offend you…at least not yet.
Which is why all the censorship on social media is so ridiculous. And if someone is DM’ing you to harass you…That’s not free speech anymore that’s harassment and there’s already laws about that.
As all real free speech advocates will tell you in opposition to „free speech absolutist“ elon musk is that you are free from government intervention for being of different opinion but not free to harass others with -isms.
You’re not free to dump on women, poc, neurodivergents, disabled people and any other minority.
Words aren’t violence. and naughty-racial words, are words.
I actually want people to be allowed to say those things, why? Because if someone says it out loud, unapologetically when they say they hate those n-words in their schools. Well now I know who to stay away from.
Death threats, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, child porn?
Beyond that, protecting the freedom of speech of the likes of Nazis, who would use that freedom to harass and intimidate, consolidate power, then take away all freedoms, and commit a string of genocides is anti-freedom.
It’s the paradox of tolerance - this shit is a social contract - you get freedoms on the condition you don’t fuck with the freedoms of others.
Death threats, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, child porn?
You’re confusing freedom of ideas and speech with freedom of action.
Censorship is about limiting freedom of thought and speech.
As much as I think it’s a waste of mental energy, you have the absolute right to wish someone dead. Acting on that thought is where the line is drawn, and crossing that line is where it becomes a crime.
“Freedom of expression of opinion” would be a more fitting term, as it is called in most languages. Death threads and shouting fire in a crowded theater are not opinions…
If you don’t support the free speech rights of the people you hate the most, then you don’t support free speech at all.
All censorship is bad. One day it’s naughty racial words and then the next day religious zealots can lock people up for saying “god” in the wrong context.
Dead wrong. The nazis will not be nice to you and respect your free speech because you respect theirs. Ever. They will lock you up regardless. This is not an even playing field.
Being locked up is a pretty charitable assumption about what will happen given the Nazis’ history and current rhetoric.
Again, nazis don’t have the power to do those things here in this century in the US.
Yet.
If you say you are right to censor your worst enemys then the Nazis were logically also right to censor the opinions of the people THEY hated the most…
Supporting only certain peoples freedom of speech is the definition of censorship…
no. you cannot tolerate the intolerant.
Everyone’s OPINION has to be tolerated. If you dont tolerate the people you deem “the intolerant” then those people will see you as intolerant (against them) aswell. According to you, they would then be right not not tolerate you (as “the intolerant” that doesnt tolerate them).
As long as they dont take away from anybody else’s freedom (and by just stating one’s opinion one doesnt do that) it has to be tolerated, otherwise it is censorship.
what’s the value of me tolerating someone who’s stated aims are to do me, my family and friends harm?
What’s the value of tolerating any other opinion than yours?
No it isn’t. One is a violent group who want to kill and enslave. The other respects life. They are not the same. They do not have the same rights. You are dead wrong, period. No amount of rationalization will make you not dead wrong.
Killing and enslaving are both means to do something, not the actual reason itself. If any person with a different political view wanted to do the same, it would be just as bad. Everyones opinion should be allowed.
What would you consider to be a good reason for killing and enslaving that everyone needs to hear about regularly?
Killing and enslaving should not be allowed and should be avoided at all cost.
The point is, however, if (lets say) a communist killed and enslaved people, should that mean that communist views should be censored in the future? (No! IMO)
Killing and enslaving people are terrible and unacceptable ways of pushing one’s own ideals. It does not make the actual opinion itself invalid though.
But communist views ARE censored, and it is specifically because it is claimed that they killed and enslaved. Meanwhile, Nazi views are celebrated as they announce to all that killing and enslavement is their goal.
Doesn’t mean you don’t support free speech. When I join a chatroom and someone is just typing shit over and over trying to get a rise and I ignore/block them, I don’t agree that I’m against free speech, I’m against harassment.
False equivalence. Online you can choose not to see things you don’t like. Online, no one can force you to look at things that offend you…at least not yet.
Which is why all the censorship on social media is so ridiculous. And if someone is DM’ing you to harass you…That’s not free speech anymore that’s harassment and there’s already laws about that.
Yep, this is where people frequently mistake censorship for outlawing certain behaviours.
Someone can stand on a street corner and shout all day about how they hate specific races, how they feel they’re a blight on society, etc.
Distasteful shit, for sure, but people can walk away, ignore them.
That’s what freedom of speech is, and it should absolutely be protected.
When those people cross the line into acting on those things - harassment, intimidation, assault, worse - that’s a crime that should be prosecuted.
That… is so not true in many states of the world.
How to tell me you‘re a cis white male without telling me you‘re a cis white male.
Identity politics, nice. Free speech benefits everyone.
As all real free speech advocates will tell you in opposition to „free speech absolutist“ elon musk is that you are free from government intervention for being of different opinion but not free to harass others with -isms.
You’re not free to dump on women, poc, neurodivergents, disabled people and any other minority.
I’m autistic
Same here. You‘re still not free to dump on minorities.
Words aren’t violence. and naughty-racial words, are words.
I actually want people to be allowed to say those things, why? Because if someone says it out loud, unapologetically when they say they hate those n-words in their schools. Well now I know who to stay away from.
Oh. So you‘re fine if others hang themselves because they get constantly harassed because it doesn’t affect you, got it.
Words are words. Words aren’t violence.
All censorship is bad?
Death threats, shouting fire in a crowded theatre, child porn?
Beyond that, protecting the freedom of speech of the likes of Nazis, who would use that freedom to harass and intimidate, consolidate power, then take away all freedoms, and commit a string of genocides is anti-freedom.
It’s the paradox of tolerance - this shit is a social contract - you get freedoms on the condition you don’t fuck with the freedoms of others.
You’re confusing freedom of ideas and speech with freedom of action.
Censorship is about limiting freedom of thought and speech.
As much as I think it’s a waste of mental energy, you have the absolute right to wish someone dead. Acting on that thought is where the line is drawn, and crossing that line is where it becomes a crime.
There’s a very distinct difference.
“Freedom of expression of opinion” would be a more fitting term, as it is called in most languages. Death threads and shouting fire in a crowded theater are not opinions…
Censorship of any opinion is bad.